How to change minds, Creative Failure, ESG whistle blowing
ESG whistle blowing. David Finnigan: creativity, failure, art in a time of climate Sainsbury living wage debate. Ride app driver: evangelical views. Kamikatsu: zero waste village in Japan.
I had an excellent long form conversation with David Finnigan on how we make theatre and the importance of failure to the creative process. We also touched upon many thoughtful topics such as the nature of art in a time of climate, what David has learned from animals, what I think of the creative process. One of my self recommending picks of the week.
I transcribed the conversation between Robert Eccles and Desiree Fixler. Everyone in ESG world should take note. ESG whistle blowing
David Finnigan: creativity, failure, art in a time of climate
Sainsbury living wage vote and debate
Ride app driver: evangelical views
Kamikatsu: zero waste village in Japan, Kana’s newsletter
Most progressive carbon intensity investment policy?
Links: Challenges on air pollution. WHO recently changed guidance. Tricks to improve your memory. Including playing 20 questions. A long form essay on circadian rhythms. Rare earths in Turkey. Thinking on disability. On finding beauty in maths. On things theatre makers learnt.
I took a ride app taxi journey this week. The driver was very disparaging over Boris Johnson and his team (corrupt) and pretty disparaging over Starmer (in it for the status). I asked him about Black Lives Matter movement. He was disparaging over BLM. Does the money being raised go to help the black poor, or is it only celebrity? (He was black, but only in that it might mean you could have thought he’d be more sympathetic to the movement) I offered no judgment.
When listening to taxi drivers, it’s often best to be fairly neutral, IMHO. He thought Putin was “a nutter”, but that Nato could be provoking. He also supported the overturning of Roe v Wade, as he felt this went against his Christian beliefs. He advocated for state support for unwanted children, and acknowledged that there was no state support and unlikely to get anything soon (re: disparaging over political leaders), but he was very firm. This view is held by about 15% of British people, so that is still >1 in 10, so maybe every 10 taxi rides you will find this opinion. (And as my friend LJ points out, this opinion is held by many more people than liberals might think). From the tone of his conversation and arguments, I reflected that I did not think anything I could say would change his view. Still for those of us on the other side, I think we need to continue to listen carefully to the stories we tell ourselves.
More on this in a future podcast with Leigh Caldwell on the way our mind consumes intangible values.
It was eye opening, in the firmness of his belief, and the immediacy of his address. He also came across as smart and intelligent.
Yet, I did ask the driver to reflect on his position quite softly. I asked about the impact on women, on the unwanted children, and the role of forgiveness from God. I judged he felt listened to (I gained a 5 star rating?!) and if we ever met again, I’m sure I could open the conversation again and see if it might go down a different path. This method of possible persuasion I like to think of as using a bigger tent that takes into account people’s social cues and ingrained stories. I read an account by Tim Harford on David McRaney debating a flat earther on this. This method stands in contrast to eg. the debate on Sainsbury living wage below.
More on the power of stories in a future podcast with Leigh Caldwell on the way our mind consumes intangible values.
We also talk about this aspect of the power of stories in my pod with David Finnigation. It seems to me we need the audience or an opening of an audience to begin our story telling.
Re: Future podcasts, I’m excited that Kana Chan who writes at Tending Gardens has agreed to speak on the pod. Kana has moved to Kamikatsu which is a town (1,500 people) in Japan that has declared a zero-waste declaration and is on a journey to be a zero waste town. The people recycle >80% of their wastes vs a national average of 20%.
Kana gives a glimpse into rural life in Japan and what a circular life style might look like. It seems less extreme than the off-grid year that Fran Sanderson spent in Portugal (see podcast here) but has echoes of slow food, and more seasonal and less wasteful living. Even for us dedicated to the city - which I think I am as of now - I think we have lessons to learn. Check out her substack here, Tending Gardens. And let me know if you have questions for her.
Let me reflect a little on my chat with David Finnigan on creativity. As afterwards, there’s lots of bits on ESG world (sorry arty people…).
We speak about the process of creativity. Most people who only dip into creativity, I think, miss how messy creativity is. Most people only see the end output. You have a glimpse of this in our discussion. David describes how much “practice” he had putting hundreds of hours of creative output in his teenage and early years. While we talk about this in part as well as “learning from failure”, creatives have this in constantly working on their art. You see this in the Beatles documentary, I wrote about in December 2021, and if you know about the work and rehearsals of Peter Brook (who died recently) you can have the sense of the weeks and months of rehearsals that went into his theatre.
We begin our chat around the nature of art in our times. David suggests that art is of its time, and we are living in a time of climate. So all art is climate art. There is an importance essence here. I have for over 20 years been looking at healthcare investing. Of course, climate is intersectional with health on many levels and, as with climate, it can be more helpful and truthful to think about “health”, rather than climate-related aspects of health.
We discuss how all art might be considered climate art. Thus we should consider jobs as jobs, why put green there? or health is health. This can take some of the heat out of the language.
“Even in the great depression, we sort of look back now. There's a tradition of screwball comedies in the great depression. Now, we look back at them and they had nothing to do with the kind of political issues and economic issues at the time. But we look back at them now and say, "Oh, they were deliberately escapist from those conditions of the time." So whatever you kind of create now it's very hard to not find a way to read it. That is a climate reading. And when something becomes all encompassing like that, it's almost such a broad term that it ceases to be useful to use it. I'm thinking now of your comment the other day where you said, "When we talk about climate health or we talk about climate justice, that's just health and that's just justice." At what point is it relevant to use the word climate and at what point is it unnecessary? Because climate's everything. Climate's everywhere. So it becomes a bit too vague.”
We chat about the process of creativity in particular in performing arts. The importance of David finding a community in his home town and the constant making of work at the start of his artistic journey.
David discusses what he learned from scientists and his father. How this has integrated into his art.
We debate on what is most misunderstood about Australia and London.
I ask David what he learned from injured possums. David talks about London foxes and Underground mosquitoes.
How theatre is narrow but deep. How theatre is bad for being able to pay rent. What David learnt from theatre in the Philippines.
What we learn from failure. How we practice creativity and how we improve. David’s work in music and spoken word.
We end on David’s current projects including his one man climate show coming up at the Barbican.
David gives his advice to creatives.
“Don't ask for career advice, don't ask for professional advice. Ask people their story.”
Transcript and video here. Pod directly below.
Back to ESG and a few items.
There was heavy debate on the Sainsbury living wage vote in the UK. I consider myself allied and friendly to many, and possibly, all the actors in the debate. I had no possum in the race* (see my chat with David Finnigan above).
You can read the views of Share Action here, and Schroders here and Tom Gosling here and here and here (!) When friends disagree, it’s worth taking a moment to reflect on where they might agree and what’s the best way forward.
At a strategic and systems level there was agreement that government policy might be best placed to deal with this, and that corporates were a lesser level to look at. I think that should not be lost. This point may apply to certain aspects of the climate challenge as well. But, even aside from that, it struck me that those who were being criticized were mostly inside the progressive tent.
I observe this in political movements all the time where the left leaning punish the centre and the centre left - in many ways much more vocally than those ideologically further away. In ESG, Forceful stewardship proponents end up castigating incrementalism.
I am unsure if this is the correct application of the activist theory of change. It makes me think back to the taxi driver and Tim Hardford’s column on McRaney. Moving the policy (Overton) window, or the median voter, seems to require having a bigger tent to accommodate those who have the same aims as you for many reasons but in part because the opposition seemingly has a bigger tent. Gosling (who is broadly progressive on many ESG matters) makes this point in his blog. He argues:
Evicting Schroders from the Good Work Coalition seems counterproductive. This must make Schroders, an investor who seems genuinely committed to engagement on workforce issues, much less likely to support ShareAction initiatives in future, which will only weaken them. It also seems to create a massive disincentive for any major investor to join the Coalition in future, given the risk they could be treated similarly if they disagree with ShareAction on a specific case.
I hold many human beliefs lightly. Humans change over time. Many strongly held beliefs over history such as those over women, slaves, rights and values have progressed. I’d be interested to know if people think they have progressed when the tent is bigger and inclusive, or when they are at their most combative; and how that interacts. And how you think you change people’s minds?
I thought this conversation between Bob Eccles and Desiree Fixler insightful and important enough that I made a transcript of it. Read/Watch link below.
Desiree was placed in a position where she felt the right thing to do was at odds with other management. In this conversation, she dismisses the notion that she was “brave”.
She says:
“…There was no way I could sign off on what I had recognized to be absolute misstatements and misrepresentation…”
I feel fortunate that I have never been placed in such a position. In all honesty, I think many of us when faced with an actual situation like this may not be able to act like Desiree has acted - for many understandable pressures and reasons.
I was once told that if you stand for nothing, you fall for everything (usually misattributed to Alexander Hamilton)
I believe bravery and courage come in different forms. I think most people would agree bravery shows mental or moral strength in facing difficulty.
I will leave up to you to judge what you make of this situation. Take what insights you glean from this conversation between two people committed to their field.
The assasination of Shinzo Abe is deeply shocking on many levels for Japan. Noah Smith recounts much of Abe’s legacy below. Inside of ESG, the arrow aimed at corporate governance and also increasing women’s participation in the workforce has been very noticeable and will resonate for years to come.
Is this one of the most progressive policies on carbon intensity within an investment portfolio? Be interested, if out of large institutional mandates you know of others?
10 February 2022 - by Council resolution, a target of 75% less carbon intensity in the overseas equities portfolio relative to the benchmark in support of the University’s net zero emission goal.
This is from ANU (David Finnigan’s old university!), Australian National University. Policy here: https://policies.anu.edu.au/ppl/document/ANUP_005802
Incidentally, ANU’s motto is…
Motto. Naturam Primum Cognoscere Rerum
Motto in English. "First to learn the nature of things"
I think there is something to that. … Best to know the nature of something before you can attempt to change it (?!)
I’m still very excited to speak to philosopher Larry Temkin next week. Let me know if you have questions.
Links:
Challenges on air pollution. WHO recently changed guidance.
Tricks to improve your memory. Including playing 20 questions.
A long form essay on circadian rhythms
Rare earths in Turkey
Thinking on disability
Quote
On finding beauty in maths
On things theatre makers learnt